Kaj naj daje dober hifi?

[Marko Puš]

[quote="raketar"]Da ne bo moje pisanje samo destruktivno oz. "prepričevanje drugih kaj je dober zvok" vam lahko predlagam temo za naslednji avdio klub,. Kaj ko bi vesem udeležencem avdio kluba marko puš predstavil svojo pot resetiranja. Sigurno bo udeležba obiskovalcev rekordna.

Upam, da me otročički ne bodo tožili.

[raketar]

S Pušem ter ostalimi se ne mislim ukvarjati, bi pa odgovoril FK-ju.

Mogoče, ampak ne moje

Nikoli in nikdar nisem pljuval po tvojih gramofonih, nikoli in nikdar nisem pljuval po tebi kot vrhunskem konstruktorju vrhunski gramofonov, nikoli in nikdar nisem pljuva po tvojih izkušnjah, ko prej našteto že imaš, še kako uspeti v poslu.

Ampak odgovarjam ti že na tvoje drugo vprašanje. Sam odgovorov na moja vprašanja (zainteresirani pobrskajte po forumu, forumih), ki se izkljčno tičejo avdi problmatike, zastavljena tebi nisem nikoli dobil, čeprav je preteklo že zelo veliko časa. Niti na enega. Jih tudi ne pričakujem več. Naj pač vsak bralec kogar to zanima poišče, prebere ter presodi sam.

Oglej si samo svoj forum. Skrivate se vi sami, za zaprtimi temami vidnimi le izbrancem. Ali to mogoče pripomore k večji promociji HIGH-END a? Mogoče, ampak potem nič več ne razumem, pa nič zato.

Nikogar nikoli v nič ne prepričujem (preberi zgodbico še enkrat) ali mu vsiljujem svojega mnenja, ne na forumu ne na bilo katerem avdio sejmu s STYLOS SYS. Prej sem zaradi svoje redkobesednosti okaran. Sem še vedno mnenja da dober zvok oz. HIGH-END zvok prepričuje sam, brez besed, seveda tistega, ki želi poslušati ter ga išče. Nažalost pa so besede in še kaj v poslu pač neobnodne. Pri glasbi imamo opravka z najabstraktnejšo ter najstarejšo umetnostjo, ki je tudi najkompleksnejša, zato besede slej ko prej padejo na trdna tla. Če nekomu nek zvok ni všeč mu pač ni, zato ker je za njega slab ali pa predrag.

Seveda pa tebi igra STYLOS SYS-HAD d/a konverter kot najcenejši Rotel. Tudi OK, saj sami vemo da zvok HAD-a ne bo pogodu vsakomur zato (tudi cena) ga tudi vsak, ki ga sliši ne bo kupil. Upam, da tega ne boš označil kot laž. Mogoče sarkazem?

STYLOS SYS, ki ni samo Igor Jež, je s svojim dosedanjim delom, znanjem, rezultati, ki so plod precej trnove poti, zelo zadovoljen. Preteklo leto smo prodali 6 konverterjev HAD (9000EUR; seveda zankrat v SLO dosti cenejši), kar je za nas seveda, velik uspeh, ki ti da novega elana za nadalnje delo: udležitev ter prisotnost znamke STYLOS SYS na večjih svtovnih avdio sejmih, pridobiti distributerje po svet..., delo na novih projektih ter izdelkih. Seveda pa kot kupca HAD a ter njegov sistem poznam samo Iztokovega ostalh 5 pa ne. Me pa zelo veseli če so z našim proizvodom zadovoljni vsi.
Igrata že tudi dva nova algoritma. Prvi USB DAC, ki bo cenejši kot HAD ter drugi dosti dražji HIGH-END d/a konvrter EUTERPA. Sigurno se bomo s tem vsi, ki izdelujemo ali pa če vam bolj godi, poskušamo proizvajati, strinjali, da od prototipa do izdelka pripravljenega za trg lahko preteče veliko časa, ampak to je šele začetek. Se strinjam.
Upam, da bo vsaj en nov d/a konverter, če ne oba viden, slišan jeseni.

Če pa nas kdo označuje: kot butični DIY, garažni izdelovalci..., pa je pač to njegov problem saj smo se s takimi stvarmi že zdavnaj prenehali obremenjevati.

Ravno sedaj se pakira STYLOS SYS-HAD za na pot v USA, kjer so nekateri izrazili željo, da bi ga radi slišali. Upamo na vse najboljše seveda pa se zavedamo, da lahko vse skupaj pade v vodo.

Kolikšna je količina tvoje pomoči, tvojega znanja, tvojega prostega časa pri tem pa boš izmeril sam (seveda če ne misliš, da lažem).

Upam, da smo si povedali "vsi vsem vse" , vsaj kar se mojega pisanja tiče ter so nekatere stvari dosti bolj jasne vsaj meni.

Pa veliko uspeha pri nadaljnem delu.

[kuzma2]

In kaj ima tvoje pisanje o tebi in tvoji firmi veze z menoj in mojim pisanjem!!!

Torej lažem ,ker po tvoje na nekaj vprašanj morda nisem odgovoril.

Vsak forum je lahko organiziran tako, da je odprt za vse ali pa je del zaprt za širški krog.

Evo, eno vprašanje katero je namenjeno bralcem tega foruma: "Ali želite izvedeti kaj JAZ mislim o zgoraj omenjenih izdelkih?"

No, na to ne boste dobili odgovora, ker nisem nikoli pisal o zvoku drugih komponent razen tistih, ki so pod okriljem moje firme in upam, da ne bom zaradi tega zopet obtožen laži!


PS: čestitam k uspehu in verjetno se bo temu pridružilo še mnogo bralcev, ko bodo prebrali moj članek kako težavna je proizvodnja ( Kuzma d.o.o.novosti>zanimivosti) in mogoče malce bolje razumeli tvoje težave.

[kuzma2]

Žaljivi odgovor "raketarja" sem izbrisal.

[kuzma2]

Evo tekst iz Positive feedback o akustiki sob:

POSITIVE FEEDBACK ONLINE - ISSUE 25



The following series of articles by Rives Audio is being published in collaboration with PFO as a means to address the issue of the "room" and how best to maximize your musical pleasure.

A New way to think about Acoustics

I often have people ask me some very basic overall questions about the acoustical design of a room, such as: how much will it cost, what will it look like, how much better is it going to sound? All of these are important questions and sometimes it's difficult to give someone an answer that's easily understood.

First of all, all of those questions depend greatly on the client. What are the client's needs? I tell all of our clients when considering the acoustical engineering of a room, consider three aspects: Aesthetics, Budget, and Sonic Benefit. Every client has a different threshold for each, thus every room will be different. If you want great aesthetics, it's necessarily going to cost more to build. A certain level of performance or "Sonic Benefit" is required or you would not be acoustically engineering the room in the first place.

This explanation helps, but does not nail it down to concrete and easily understood numbers. Will it cost $5000 to build or $50,000? It is impossible for us to know precisely, this is why every project should be put out for bid, no matter how large or small. However, we can steer designs in certain directions. Let's take another aspect: sonic benefit. How do you measure that? Well, as acoustic engineers we can measure certain objective performance criteria, but that does not necessarily relate precisely to "how good does it sound?" You can actually have a room that measures beautifully, but sounds horrible. So measurements don't tell you everything, they simple act as a guideline or check to insure performance as expected. So that still leaves the question, "how good does it sound?" and there is no objective criteria to how good something sounds. As an example: there are watts for amplifiers—this has no correlation to how good the amplifier sounds, there are efficiency (db/watt) ratings for speakers, and again no correlation to how good the speakers sound. In the end, there is not a measure to how good the room will sound. That makes undergoing the design and build process a possibly daunting task. It's expensive, and it's not something you are going to trade in next month when the "new cable of the month" is released.

The point above is important and should not be taken lightly. One of my favorite quotes is: "Audio Equipment changes every year… rooms don't." Take this to heart when designing a room and consider the three aspects carefully, and if you are hiring a professional group, consider the investment and how long you will likely be using this room. A sizeable investment may warrant a trip to one of the rooms that group designed and certainly would warrant speaking with, or at least e-mailing, some of the prior clients. Look on the web and Internet forums. What do people say about the designers and engineers?

In a previous article we discussed the process of designing a room. The four basic stages: dimensions, ergonomics, concept, and schematics. Now, let's look at the preliminary planning phases of the project, some of the more abstract ideas that correlate to: Aesthetics, Budget, and Sonic Benefit.

I figured most people reading this article have probably designed a kitchen at one time or another or at least remodeled one in their home. I'm going to use this as an example in understanding some of the aspects of designing a room. First let's look at different types of kitchens: There are ones in your home, there are small ones in an apartment, there are large ones that connect into a family room, there are professional ones in restaurants and cooking schools. The basic function of the kitchen is the same—it's to prepare meals, but the specifics of the kitchen are just as variable as the specifics of a media room. Take for instance the professional kitchen. It has lots of stainless surfaces, cooking ranges capable of much higher temperature than residential stoves and ovens, huge storage capacity for ingredients, pots and pans hanging from the ceiling. Many people can cook at once and there are stations designed for specific tasks to be accomplished. Would you want a kitchen like this in your home? Some people would want a scaled down version in their home. And that's okay. It's your home and you know your needs and wants better than anyone else. I equate a professional kitchen to the likes of a recording studio. Very utilitarian and while it can be beautiful to some people, it may look very avant-garde to most. Some of the listening rooms we've designed have many aspects used in recording studios. This aesthetic appealed to these clients and we designed the room in such a way.

One of the ways I correlate the kitchen to a media room is to ask the client to consider the appliances as their equipment. The cabinetry and countertops are the acoustical treatment. The budget of the room will be comprised of what they spend on their equipment (appliances) and the acoustical devices (cabinetry/counter tops). Since we are talking about the acoustics, we will first look at the cabinetry and counter tops issue. If you want a beautiful kitchen with natural cherry cabinets and granite countertops it's going to cost more than a Formica finished kitchen. The Formica one will hold your dishes just as well, but cost a lot less. The same is true in acoustics. If you want beautiful hardwood finishes and fabrics with an intelligent integrated décor it's going to cost more than simple (often pre-fabricated) solutions.

Now let's consider the appliances. Yes, these can obviously affect the budget too, but I really want to address using appropriate appliances more than budget issues here. In an apartment kitchen that's only big enough for 2 people in it, would you put the Viking 8 burner stove and double convection oven? I doubt it too. Then why are you trying to put the largest pair of speakers known to man and a 1000 watt amplifier in an 11 x 13 listening room? It makes just as much sense—none. Consider your space and consider your equipment to be appropriate for that space.

Back to our kitchen design. How do you really use your kitchen? Do you cook alone in it and serve to others, or are there many people helping out in the kitchen? Do you entertain in the kitchen—does it become the central location when you have parties? These types of questions should be asked when designing a media room. How many people will use it? Will you entertain in there or is it mainly for 2 people? How should you layout your kitchen? Have you ever been in a kitchen where things were located in the wrong place? The dishwasher was on the opposite wall as the sink, and there was no counter space next to the refrigerator. The glasses and dishes were stored away from the dishwasher. Chances are you haven't been in too many kitchens like this, and for a good reason. People have been designing and using kitchens for a long time. People almost automatically know these basic aspects that you should consider when designing a kitchen. Form follows function is the golden rule in designing a kitchen and it should be as well in designing a media room. Chances are that you may not have designed a media room before and many of these basic principles could easily be forgotten. A good designer/engineer can help you with these things. For example, don't have a side mounted speaker on an aisle that everyone is going to hit their head on. You can't imagine how often this mistake is made. Also, don't create unnecessary up and down steps for that riser in the back of the room. The interior designer might think it looks cool, but functionally it has no purpose and you will grow tired of the added steps quickly. They become simply something to trip over. Other things to consider are where is the equipment rack going to be located, how will it be accessed, and where is the media? You would be surprised how often things like this are left out. I want my media close to the equipment, not in the next room. Just like I want the dishwasher close to the sink.

Just like a kitchen, the process is expensive and not something you want to do twice, so plan properly. Just like designing a kitchen it is likely you will have to make some choices and compromises. You may have really wanted the granite countertops, but they just came in over budget, you can still get a great kitchen. Also you may have dreamed of that Viking stove, but can't get the ventilation required by the city's Building & Safety codes to have that model. This would be like not being able to get the seats far enough back to have a proper viewing distance for that 10 foot screen you wanted. So consider your decisions carefully and understand the compromises. A good designer/engineer can educate you enough to understand the importance of each of these decisions.

Lastly, enjoy the process. It's truly fun because you are making the decisions for a room that you will enjoy a very long time.

Please visit www.rivesaudio.com, who has provided this series of articles on acoustics. Rives Audio is the leading consulting and design group for small room acoustics and has an extensive resource section where you can learn more on acoustics as well.




POSITIVE FEEDBACK ONLINE © 2006 - HOME
BACK TO TOP

[kuzma2]

Pa še malce nadaljevanja o akustiki:

The Top 10 Secrets To Room Set-Up and Acoustics
Copyright 2004, Rives Audio, Inc. Page 1 of 1

1. Speaker placement. Easily the most significant return on investment. It costs virtually nothing
and can be extremely rewarding. Rather than spend a large amount of time on how to get the
possible placement, we’ve written a separate white paper that can be found at:
www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf
2. Listening position. This is second to speaker placement and follows the same principles. You
want to avoid sitting in peaks or nulls of waves in the lower octaves (particularly below 150
Hz). There are some general guidelines, but every room is different. In general if you can
place your listening position at one third or one fifth from the back wall you will avoid many
peaks and nulls. Another way to determine if you are in a peak or null is to use the * room
simulator at Rives Audio’s website: http://www.rivesaudio.com/CARAquick/CARAframe.html
3. First reflection points. Have you ever heard of the mirror trick? It’s pretty simple. Once you
have the speakers and listening position determined have a friend take a mirror and go along
the side walls. From the listening position when you can see the driver of the closest speaker
in the mirror, this is the first reflection point. You should damp, or absorb this reflection.
There are plenty of ways of doing this from Sonex foam to acoustical absorbing panels made
by a variety of companies, or you can make your own. Now, these are just 2 of the surfaces
that need to be damped. Don’t forget the ceiling and floor (unless it’s carpeted and then that
will suffice). Sometimes diffusion is used on the ceiling such as RPG skylines, but in family
rooms, this may not be appropriate from an aesthetic standpoint. If that’s the case, light
colored panels would make more sense.
4. Back wall diffusion. Whether it’s home theater or 2 channel, the wall behind the listener
should be as diffuse as possible. Book cases or LP racks are good ways of accomplishing
this. If this is not an option there are a variety of commercial diffusors on the market from
RPG to Decware to Acoustics First.
5. Front wall treatment. This can vary with the size of the room and application. In general, you
do not want the front wall to go untreated. Usually a diffuse surface, just enough to break up
that back wave coming off the speakers, is a good idea. In some home theaters a modest
amount of absorption is necessary as well.
6. Window treatment. Glass can be a real problem. Two things you should know about glass.
First it rings, and if not treated with drapes or blinds can give a harsh bright reflection that is
very unpleasant in the listening room. Second, it leaks bass. This makes the first problem
seem even worse, because now the bass has been reduced and the treble has been
effectively raised. The overall effect will not be very good. Rooms with large windows should
be avoided. If they are used, you may need to compensate with a subwoofer, even if you
have very large and very capable low frequency response from your main speakers.
7. The space between the speakers. Keep it * and clear of everything if possible. The
equipment rack, TV, really everything—keep it away from this very critical area for the best 2
channel imaging. Amplifiers on the ground generally are not a problem. If you have to have a
rack, keep it as low the floor as possible.
8. Doors. Solid core doors are recommended and you can weather strip the doors, including the
base to get better sound pressure and a very modest amount of sound isolation from adjacent
rooms.
9. Floor. Hard surfaces can be good particularly in a 2 channel room. However, you do not want
the listener over a hard surface. Try an area rug below the listener. Also, wood is typically a
good floor, but very hard floors such as tile or stone, can be problematic. Carpet is
appropriate for multi-channel and home theater, but not as much so for 2 channel. In 2
channel, your speakers should be rigidly coupled to the hard surface. We recommend good
quality speaker spikes and some discs to protect the flooring.
10. Coffee table. No no no. We know you want one, but it really obstructs the sound stage.

[kuzma2]

Audio Federation-USA:



Tekst, kako oni opisujejo razli?ne karakterje avdio sistemov- malce za v premislek, kje se kdo najde:

Impressive:
The most commonly desired category. [1] A big soundstage, powerful bass, lots of macrodynamics. [2] Lots of midrange detail.
IMPRESIVEN ZVOK: najbolj zaželjen tip zvoka: velika zvo?na slika, mo?an bas, velika dinamika, mnogo detajlov v srednjem podro?ju

Enjoyable:
The most neglected category by the very high-end. [1] Competent sound (dynamics, frequency balance, soundstaging, timbre is not terrible). Nothing offensive.
POSLUŠLJIV ZVOK: najbolj zanemarjena kategorija: prepri?ljiv zvok ( dinamika, frekven?na uravnoteženost, prostorska slika, ter tonski karakter niso slabi). Ni? ne moti.

Sweet:
Enjoyable plus something extra. [1] Timber and note envelopes altered to sound more like music does when the listener has consumed alcohol
MEHAK ZVOK: poslušljiv z dodatki ne?esa ve?: tonski karakter in sami toni se zlijejo z glasbo na enak na?in kot tedaj, ko poslušalec uživa alcohol.

Sophisticated:
Also enjoyable and pleasant [1] Exaggerated subtleties.
SOFISTICIRAN ZVOK: Mehak in poslušljiv zvok z povdarjenimi detajli.

Emotional:
Often thought to be at the end of the high-end rainbow, but repeated experiences with blues and melancholy music pushes one to go farther. [1] The music pulls at the heart in the direction of the emotional content of the musician's message. This effect can be of varying strengths. [2] Leads to mood swings and to listening to more ?fun?, lighthearted music than before.
OB?UTEN ZVOK: velikokrat se tak zvok smatra za tisto kar naj bi pri reprodukciji vrhunske glasbe težili najbolj. Toda izkušnje z blues in melanholi?no glasbo nas pripeljejo še dlje. Glasba nas zagrabi z bistvom glasbenega sporo?ila. Toda tak efekt nas pripelje do sprememb našega obnašanja in zaradi tega poslušamo še ve? takšne lahkotne emocionalne glasbe kot preje.( prevod?)

Natural:
True timbre and note envelope development. [1] The subtleties of the sound is real. The correctness of the macrodynamics, level of detail, etc. is not necessary for this category
NARAVNI ZVOK: resni?ni tonski karakter inštrumentov ter tonov: detajli so zelo realisti?ni. Toda pravilna dinamika, nivoji detajlov niso ?isto na nivoju naravnega zvoka.

Real:
The ?Absolute Sound?. Comparable to the real thing. The most often mistakenly heard category. [1] Able to suspend the listener?s sense of disbelief. Transparent - ability to ?see? the stage and the musicians. [2] Sufficiently technically correct reproduction but only to the degree where it satisfies requirement [1].
REALISTI?EN ZVOK: to je absolutni zvok, ki se primerja z resni?nim zvokom. Ta kategorija se velikokrat narobe razume. Naj pripelje poslušalca v to, da verjame v realnost, naj bi videl zvo?ni oder in glasbenike. Toda je dovolj pravilna reprodukcija, da pripelje do nivoja, kjer zadovolji te zahteve.

Magical:
The voice of God. Contact with the Cosmic Consciousness. [1] Somethings occur inside the listener which are not typically associated with listening to music. The music becomes a pathway to experiencing things and ideas that are beyond the usual daydreams one has had before, and in fact, quite strange, but in a good way. [2] Rampant confusion
MAGI?EN ZVOK: glas boga: zvok se te vesoljsko dotakne. To se doseže v notranjosti poslušalca, kar nima direktne povezave s poslušanjem glasbe. Glasba postane pot s katero izkušamo stvari in ideje, ki gredo preko obi?ajnega sanjarjenja na samosvoj a dober na?in. Nekontrolirana zmedenost.

PROSTI PREVOD: FK
[url]

http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/ ... /part1.htm[/url]

[raketar]

Mogoče še malo mojega razmišljanja.

Izpostavljanje nekega tonskega področja, če lahko tako rečemo, iz konstruktorskega vidika ni ravno pretirano težko doseči. Količina basov oz. velik bas, izpostavljenost, količina srednjetonskega ali pa visokotonskega spektra nas največkrat pripelje do sodbe kakšen je bil zvok neke komponente. Tak pristop je do neke mere OK, če težimo k temu, da naj bi bili vsi tonski spektri, če jih mogoče malo banalno, ampak zaradi boljšega razumevanja razdelimo na base, srednje ter visoke, med seboj uravnoteženi. Vprašanje, ki se takoj za tem zastavi je: kaj pa človeško uho? Vsi vemo, da je človeško uho najbolj občutljivo pri približni 1800Hz-5000Hz oz. te frekvence najbolj slišimo; napram ostalim. Če vsak malo pri sebi pomisli so to resnično frekvence, kjer nas pri reprodukciji največ moti oz. ugaja. Krivulja slišnosti človeškega ušesa se pri višjih intenzitetah zvoka spremeni oz. postane bolj ravna ampak nikoli »flat«. Marsikdo se še spominja starih radiev, ki so bili konstruirani tako, da se je s spreminjanjem glasnosti spreminjala tudi linearnost (loudness), kar ni bilo nič narobe kvečjemu prav. Nato pa pridejo učenjaki, ki radi merijo, tehtajo, vse vejo………….samo s poslušanje glasbe oz reprodukcijo se ne ukvarjajo.
Vsak poslušalec zase ve, kakšen zvok, če ga gledamo s količine prisotnosti različnih frekvenčnih spektrov mu najbolj ugaja.

Seveda izpostavljenost frekvenčnih spektrov nima nič skupnega z večanjem ali pa manjšanjem dinamike. Večja količina basov, srednji, visokih ne poveča dinamike. Prava dinamiko se začuti v glasbi sami, lažna pa pri izpostavljanju (lahko namesto »dinamike« uporabimo tudi kakšno drugo besedo)

Če končam s kvantiteto ter začnem s kvaliteto. To pa je že "večno polemična zadeva", ki začne močno begati konstruktorje avdio naprav ( kakor koga ) še bolj pa poslušalce oz. avdio intuzijaste. Če vzamem za primer zvočnika, ki uporabljata: eden papirnate ter svilene membrane, drugi pa kevlarske ter aluminjaste membrane. Pa recimo da so zvočniki pri obeh primerih istih karakteristik ter so uporabljene identične kretnice ter recimo identična ohišja, škatle. Zvok bo v obeh primerih vrhunski, vendar tudi drugačen zaradi uporabe različnih materialov membran. Ampak karakter komponente bo še zmeraj pri obeh primerih vrhunski. »Isto«, zelo podobno razmišljanje lahko prenesemo tudi na ostale avdio komponente. Če ga lahko uporabimo zmeraj potem je največkrat dobro. Menjava delov v danem algoritmu ne pripelje do spremembe karakterja kvečjemu spremeni okus. Fižol z več ali manj popra ter soli bo še zmeraj fižol le enkrat bolj slan drugič bolj pikanten.

Edina stvar, zame seveda, ki nekam pelje ter daje vedno boljše rezultate je iskanje neprisotnost plastičnosti oz. elektronike v reproducirani glasbi. Seveda to ne pomeni, da sta v dobri avdio komponenti »samo dva tranzistorja« ampak, da je v zvoku komponente občutek »brez tranzistorja«, čeprav je čas pokazal, da tudi trditev o številu elementov do neke mere drži. Če vzamem za primer avdio komponente (ne vse), ki uporabljajo elektronke za aktivne elemente. Pa pustimo sam zvok lamp. Večina konstrukcije, gledano iz konstrukcijskega vidika, je precej banalnih oz. preprostih; par stopenj, takšnih in drugačnih, pa ven. Mogoče pa tu tiči zajec??
Posnetki klasike 60 ih za katere se še zmeraj večina strinja, da so najboljši. Zakaj? Mogoče ravno zaradi banalne tehnike snemanja, ki je bila za takrat seveda »high tech« ter večjemu posvečanju glasbi sami oz. kvaliteti posnetka.
Gramofon; igla odčita analogen signal iz brazde plošče, v predojačevalec recimo z dvema, tremi lampami….dokaj malo elektronike na poti signala. Vendar, preproste stvari, ki dobro opravljajo svojo funkcijo je bilo in bo najtežje doseči, potuhtati, skonstruirati.

Stvar, ki pa me zadnje čase vedno bolj bega pa je: delovanje avdio komponent v realnem času. Gramofon je že ena takih, ki v realnem času deluje. Seveda pa ima tudi ogromno slabosti. Za izgubo njegovih vrlin oz. prednosti pa je tudi največkrat potrebno zelo, zelo malo.

Naj bodo to moje »domače« (lasten recept, nekopiran) klobase za na piknik. Uživajte.

PS.: Imamo nova web stran: www.stylos-sys.com (končno)

[raketar]

Še eno razmišljanje z nekega foruma, kaj naj daje dober Hi Fi oz. kaj naj bi High End bil. Vrhunska umetnost??? Tudi ?e ni, pa ima z njo kar dosti skupnega.
Ime firme sem nadomestil s "PRAVi HIGH END", da ne bi kdo texta razumel kot hvalospev ampak kot razmišljanje kaj pravzapav High End je. Upam, da me ne bo kdo zaradi tega lovil.

My experience: Escape or panacea?
Hi End is about the preservation and reproduction of sound waves. There is no disagreement that the musical devices producing those waves can vary in quality or that the individual who operates those devices can vary in skill level. However, in the best scenario, a virtuoso using the finest instrument produces a sequence of "organized air waves" (called music) that pass into the ear, travel through nerves to the brain, and generate a "spiritual movement". That is actually the goal of music composition and performance. So, the goal of Hi End-- which tries as accurately as possible to reproduce those sound waves--is to deliver a "spiritual movement" or preserve an emotional impact that the composer intended to deliver to his or her audience.
The "spiritual movement" is a "spiritual movement". It is not an electrostatic movement, not a single-ended movement, not a vacuum tube movement, not soundstage movement, not class "A" movement, not 24-bit movement, not "properly treated room" movement, not oversized magnet movement, not gold soldered movement, and not low distortion movement...
All of the aforementioned movements are targeted to satisfy totally different demands of human needs. Our discussions of the particular technology that can enrich the composer's message is similar to two death row inmates discussing how knife design and manufacturing improves its killing ability. Similarly, buying $50,000 worth of jewelry for a woman does not make her more valuable, applying world-class cosmetics to a corpse does not make it look charming, and trying to blow life in to the dead substance does not lead to a fruitful result. So why do we accept Hi End products which deliver "beautiful engineering solutions" but do not increase the chances of our being spiritually moved by the music?
I have been asking my friends, the audio equipment dealers, and myself those same questions and have come to realize that the answer cannot be found within the Hi End world. The Hi End industry is about a group of people who are paying their mortgages by selling merchandise to individuals who do not know what they really need. Hi End consumers are hostages of this industry and drift from brand to brand, store to store, buying into skillfully organized marketing campaigns but for some reason, after investing $100K in the latest and greatest Hi End gear, find themselves saying "not happy with what I'm hearing". Sounds familiar, doesn't it? However, contrary to "not happy audiophiles" I believe that I know what I am looking for. But unfortunately, each time I want to be "moved by music", I cannot simply invite the Boston Symphony Orchestra or Willy Dixon over to my apartment for a couple of tunes. I need true "sound reproducing equipment". Welcome to the audiophile club....
Purchasing Hi End gear is like purchasing a car. If you're buying a BMW, then any model of BMW will be different from any model of Chrysler, though they will each retain the same types of distinctions throughout the product lines. It is the same with Hi End gear. All the equipment from a certain manufacturer will have a specific sound characteristic (which amuses me: it's the musical instruments that should sound differently...). The reason for this is that behind each brand there is an individual or sometimes a group of people who have a vision of the products' topology, principles, manufacturing methods, design and assembling. I feel very comfortable if we are talking about cars but I do not when it comes to the engineering of music producing gear. However, I still need to acquire a mechanism that will let me experience the pain of Buddy Guy or the joy of Mozart. Do I care about the manufacturer's "...30 years in business" or their "...patent pending technology"?
I've heard them all. I have heard those "full of resolution" systems and realized that instead of getting the sensations I expected I got a direct insult to my intelligence. And what insulted me more was the fact that I actually paid for it and did so voluntarily. I have experienced many "music-producing machines"; however, my frustration has been increasing proportionally to the size of my dealer's smile. Eventually I began to lose my interest for the entire field and began to wonder if it was fake. Then I was introduced to something which changed my entire perception of Hi End: »PRAVI HI END«
No specific »PRAVI HI END« model of equipment is being mentioned here because all »PRAVI HI END« electronics sound distinctive. The purpose of this article isn't to review »PRAVI HI END« but to share my vision of the place of the »PRAVI HI END« sound within the contemporary Hi End world.
What shocked me about this gear? First was a total lack of any mental abuse by the music, the delicacy and non-intrusiveness of the signal, and a complete absence of electronically made effects. I do not feel that I would like to write a product review. But I would like to note just one very interesting fact: it is difficult to turn the »PRAVI HI END« off. It is strange. Do you ever answer a phone call while music is on? Or talk with one of your housemates? Or do something, anything, which requires concentration? You shut down your system and return back to life, don't you? Not with the »PRAVI HI END« . This stuff creates sounds so organically bonded with your environment that you'll just turn down an attenuator on the preamp. Why? I do not know.
Mr »PRAVI HI END« participated research projects which explored the way we hear. These were not just medical anatomy studies to understand the biological process but ones that attempted to grasp how our hearing creates those "spiritual images". If someone was to conduct similar research and publish the findings, the results would eliminate the common misconception that we all hear differently. In fact we all hear in a different way the different music from man-made machines but we have a very common reaction to the natural sounds. However, those who constantly expose their hearing mechanisms to those natural and pure sounds, as opposed to synthesized or electronically synthetic sounds, are not attracted to sounds which are not found in real life. It is so simple and so scary. Simple, because true sound is found in the real world, not created by applying certain
harmonic metrics to an electrical signal.
From what I've just said it is very easy to understand why »PRAVI HI END« products cost a bit more than those from other manufacturers. But what kinds of elements make up the price? Is it the total amount of resistors and capacitors the designer uses multiplied by the number of times the company placed a large ad in an audio magazine? Well, do you try to measure the amount of paint that Rembrandt used for his pictures? Can you measure the dollar value of the effort that humans spend trying to get closer to the Truth?
However, if I were a dealer I would perhaps have difficulty selling »PRAVI HI END« equipment. It would be much easier for me to demonstrate to my client other equipment: "My dear friend! For another $15K you will have the ability to hear how the stomach of your favorite artist consumes a ham sandwich which the artist ate a day before the recording...Oh! I'm sorry, you are not a proctologist... in such case, did you know that when a drummer hits the cymbals, the impact of the drum stick with metal surface actually consists of 50 micro-hits and you could entertain yourself by counting them. Let do it together... 1,2,3,4,5... Or you know what? For additional $5K I could offer you a portable device that could count it for you. Even more ...if you get both of them today then I will provide you with two years of * battery replacement and promise to inform you when a new state-of-the-art device detecting the positioning of the drum stick relative to the North Pole will be available...." Absurd? Not at all. It is a necessary routine that dealers must follow in order to be in the business. They need to provide evidence that a model they are pushing now is far superior to the model they sold last year. It is easy to demonstrate quantitative differences to a client than to force the client to read books, go to concerts, and visit museums for a long time before entering a Hi-End store. »PRAVI HI END« equipment is about building a bridge between your own personal experiences of beauty and being able to obtain this experience every time you turn on your audio equipment.
Oscar Wild suggested, "treat your spirit with sensations and let sensation treat your spirit"... So, surround your life with positive sensations. Buy flowers and smell the beautiful scent, see wonderful pictures and be blessed by your vision, drink fine wine and enjoy the fruit on your tongue. Don't you think you deserve to be surrounded by original sound sensations as well? Let »PRAVI HI END« do it for you

[ak]

Živ,

z veliko večino napisanega se strinjam. Res pa je, da se pri 30.000$ ( kolikor stane v USA najcenejša kombinacija pre-power ojačevalca od tele firme), da zbrati cel seznam firm, ki bi jih lahko vstavil v sestavek namesto firme "Pravi Hi-End".

Moje mnenje je še vedno, da si privoščiš najboljše, kar si lahko odtrgaš od normalnega življenja. Nekaj gotovine moraš odriniti za položnice, pa dopust, pa avto, pa vino, pa večerjo v vrhunski restavraciji, pa nakup originalnega Jakopiča...Koliko ti ostane za "Pravi Hi-END" ali pa morda za "Tanartabolši Hi-END", ja pa odvisno od posameznika. Bistveno pa je, da uživaš - tako v poslušanju glasbe, kot v ostalem življenju.

[raketar]

Sploh ni pomembno katera firma je to. Sploh ni pomembno koliko to stane. Zaradi mene je "Pravi High End" lahko tudi 1000 različnih firm. Pomembno je "High End" razmišljanje. Preberi še enkrat moj prvi stavek. Nažalost se pisanje res naslanja na neko firmo in očitno mi tega ni uspelo izničit. Komu mar kdo je to. Pa naj Franc popravi "Pravi High End" v "Jebi Ga". Mogoče bo text potem bolje razumljiv.

Res se je za vprašat, ali se bodo vsi strinjali da je Rambrandt najboljši. Se bo pa večina strinjala, da je vrhunski, med najboljšimi.
Da bi ga pa kupil? Malo morgen, saj za isti denar dobim 10 dobrih slik, dober avto, 20 sodov odličnega vina ter plačam vse položnice za 5 let vnaprej....... Tak pristop k stvari, pa ni po mojem okusu, čeprav si resnično nekaterih stvari ne bom nikoli privoščil, ker so skozi moje oči predrage.....
Tudi loparja za tenis, ki stane 1000EUR ne, saj žogico lahko odbivam tudi z navadno desko ?!?!? Pa še mariskaj drugega si bom na ta račun lahko privoščil ?!?!?


PS.
"Vsako tele ima svoje vesele", koliko pa smo za njega pripravljeni, zmoženi plačati pa je drugo vprašanje.
Zakaj je Rambrant tako drag, saj je samo platno in barve, pa bomo izmerili drugič.

LP, Igor

[ak]

Igor, čisto dobro sem razumel tvoj prvi stavek. Malo me je zaneslo, pa sem šel pogledat, o kateri firmi je bil originalno napisan tisti hvalospev.

Se strinjam, da firma tu ni bistvena. Morda jaz nisem bil dovolj jasen...

"Hi-End" razmišljanje ali pristop ali morda bolje globina pristopa je po mojem močno odvisna od posameznika. Namreč, kdaj ej kdo zadovoljen.

Nekaj dilem:
Eno je, kako drage aparature si lahko privoščiš (in že tu imaš dve varianti - nekoga, ki daje ves svoj denar za hi-end in drugi, ki ima tudi druge hobije), drugo je, koliko časa si lahko privoščiš uložiti v hi-end (od nabave do pozicioniranja in obdelave sobe) in tretje je, ali nekateri morda bolj ne uživajo v postavljanju hi-enda,kot v poslušanju glasbe skozi isti sistem.

Pa še eno: rekel si, da Rembrandta ne bi kupil, ker je skozi tvoje oči predrag. Lahko dodam še "trenutno"? Če bi na lotu zadel 80miljonov EUR, morda ne bo več tako grozno drag, a ne? :)

Hi-end (ali vsaj Hi-fi) mislenost, ki je meni osebno všeč je, kako iz sistema, ki si ga lahko brez pretresov (finančnih in časovnih) privoščim, izvleči čimveč zadovoljstva ob poslušanju glasbe. Pika. Pa če se kdo z mano strinja ali ne. 8)

[kuzma2]

Če prav razumem debato lahko zaključim tole:

Če sem lačen in nimam denarja, je še tako zanič hrana "highend".
Če sem pa vedno sit, je vrhunsko pripravljena jed "junk".

Mi je pa všeč, kako hitro pridemo na debato, ki se zaključuje v smislu, da je nekaj predrago.

Ali je imeti otroke predrago? Mislim, da tistim, ki jih imamo niti ni potrebno odgovoriti. Ampak jih vseeno imamo! Torej ne gre vse ocenjevati samo skozi ceno.

[quote="administrator"] Če prav razumem debato lahko zaključim tole:

Če sem lačen in nimam denarja, je še tako zanič hrana "highend".
Če sem pa vedno sit, je vrhunsko pripravljena jed "junk".

[kuzma2]

Splošni članek Scot Markwella o tem , kako dodati sub k glavnim zvočnikom.( objava z dovoljenjem avtorja): Žal se boste morali "pomatrat z amerikanščino."

How to Succeed in Subwoofing Without Really Trying

2826

Last month, during the Stereophile Show in New York City, I had a lovely breakfast conversation with our beloved and esteemed Editor wherein, in the discussion of future topics for my column, he disclosed that he was under attack from readers who did not want to dwell on the exotica that is the mainstay of Audiophilia and HiFi in general, but on more rudimentary fare, more down-to-earth information. Basic stuff, as it were. They have just purchased some new equipment and they are perhaps a little confused and intimidated with it all. Where do the bits go and what are the best ways of hooking them all together so that they operate together with some sense of continuity and synergy? In short, it is apparent that enough of our readership is troubled by stumbling blocks in the most basic areas of system assembly and set up that Mr. Gregory felt that it might be a good idea for me to put together a short series of audio equipment and system primers.
Great stuff, I thought. Now’s my chance to address some questions and problems that routinely turn up when working with Hi-Fi kit that, if one is unsure how to proceed or even how to consider the situation, can quickly turn an otherwise fine and musical system into a pile of goods that simply does not deliver the music correctly. In some instances, such things may be the result of bad advice from well-meaning people. Friends who like music but listen to computers or boom boxes are, I submit, not the ones to look to when you are assembling your first system. Likewise, I have seen many a dealer set up a system so poorly in a customer’s home that I have had to on occasion totally rearrange things and tune the system from scratch so that the customer could hear what they really had.
Of course, where to start is the key, so I suppose I will return to a mainstay that has been with me for over 30 years, and that is proper integration of a subwoofer (or two) into an existing, well-adjusted system. I fully believe that deep, quality bass response is essential for a Hi-Fi to really sound convincing across a full spectrum of music. Some do not like the experience of deep bass, but I find them to be in a minority. And usually they do not know what real music sounds like anyhow. For the purposes of this discussion, I am going to assume that your system is at a point where you are pretty happy with things. You can play a wide variety of music and the sonic results are pretty even across the board. There is nothing in your system that is actively pissing you off. No horrible resonances, no tizzy upper midband, no plastic coloration on female vocals. The point I am trying to make is that you do not want to try and integrate a subwoofer into a system that already has problems. This should be something of a last step on the road to true full-range response, not something used as a band-aid to give effects that are meant to hide deficiencies elsewhere. We will leave that to Home Cinema.
So. You have purchased your subwoofer and you are wondering what to do with it. To make this as direct and straight-forward as possible, let us assume for this discussion that you have managed this addition on your own; you searched out a likely piece on Ebay or the like, you paid, and now you have taken delivery of what seems to be a rather large and bulky box, typically these days with an amplifier built into it that will be lurking on the chassis somewhere, probably on the underside or in the back. You have no sympathetic dealer looking over your shoulder or perhaps doing the job for you. Might as well start here.
The first thing that you are going to want to do is to determine, in your system, how best to get signal to the sub. On most modern powered subs, there are typically two ways to do this: you can either use an additional set of RCA interconnects to connect to the line-level inputs of the sub’s amplifier, or, in most instances, you can hook up a set of parallel-feed speaker cables to the speaker-level input. Both of these sets of inputs will be grouped together and well-labeled. I am assuming here that you are using a sub that has connections for a stereo input; most times in a single-driver system this input is either summed for output or the woofer may have two voice coils, which in the end amounts to pretty much the same thing. You can use two separate subs for more convincing stereo bass, but that opens up a whole ‘nother can of worms so we will concentrate today just on the one.
Now, of the two connection methods, I have found that I prefer the line level way most of time, as in my setup I take the line outs from my preamp and run them to another linestage, itself remote-controlled for level and muting. This means that any time I want to adjust the level of the sub or simply mute it for any reason I can do so easily from the chair. By no means is this a needed part of the setup and in many instances it may no even be prefereable, as it does involve another box, cables, and interconnects, which many folks will be loathe to splurge upon. For myself, I just happened to have one around that worked so years ago I rigged my system up so that I could be the ultimate couch potato. If you do not want this complexity than it is perfectly fine to use a speaker level input; many folks like it better this way because the sub is fed from the same amp that feeds the speakers and the timbre and dynamic structure of the main amp is carried to a degree over to the sub, thus making for a bit easier integration with the main speakers.
OK, then. You have a powered sub. It is in your room and installed at least somewhere in the vicinity of the back of the speakers, and it is hooked up to the mains and has a set of inputs attached from either your preamp or your amp. This important: DO NOT make a mistake and hook your subwoofer feeds to a set of tape outputs. This I did once upon a time with results that were, shall we say, quite loud. Impressive bass, as I recall, but because the tape outs on preamps deliver a fixed-level signal, that bass was LOUD and never seemed to vary, even as I turned the volume knob furiously. Quite a shock, I have to tell you, and not a little embarrassing in front of the wife and several observers. A good laugh was had by all including me. As soon as I pulled the plug and started over.
Once the connection bits are sorted, you need to think on just exactly where to put the darn thing. This step has caused so much furor over the years that a bit of focus and calm is called for here. Many of you may have heard that the only place for a sub is right back smack in the corner, as close to the walls and as out-of-the-way as possible. This does work in some instances, but more often the result achieved with this placement is a thick, slow, overly-resonant character to the low and midbass that tends to obscure a lot of detail and makes the lower registers of the system ill-defined and ponderous. In the world of subwoofing, placement is the money shot. You can have all manner of hardware, giant drivers, heavy-duty Class-G switching amplifiers, the lot. But if you place the driver box injudiciously, you will be faced with a quagmire instead of the deep and clean foundation you were looking for.
The secret, I have found, to getting the placement issue just right is, surprise, experimentation. You may want to try that corner, just to see if it might work, but I predict that you will find the effect not entirely what you were after. I find that in a given setup, if you can manage to keep the sub essentially on the same plane as the main speakers, between and perhaps slightly behind them, you stand a really good chance on not mucking up the midband too much. Another great location for your subwoofer is pretty much anywhere to the (either) side and rear of the main speakers, so long as it is not fully crammed in to a corner. You see, because the lowest frequencies thrive on boundary reinforcement, if you put a powerful driver fully in a corner, it is going to tend to play loud and boomy, as its response is reinforced with essentially horn loading, in a manner similar to using a megaphone to shout over a crowd of people. This is not all a bad thing; it just needs to be managed correctly to obtain the smoothest and most extended performance.
I can see the next question coming: How can I readily ascertain what is smooth and what is lumpy and what is good and what is bad? It all makes a bloody big thump and isn’t that the idea? Well, not quite. To be really right, a good sub installation will never overtly show itself. Kind of like the art of not being seen. You should be able to sit down and listen to a cut or familiar music and not be aware that there is an added presence banging away in the background. The idea is that you subwoofer remain as invisible (sonically) as possible till it is contribution is needed. To that end, once you are reasonably satisfied that you have found a spot that you feel is not to boxed into a corner, you need to start the thing making some noise so that you hear what is what. The way that I generally start is to play test tones off a CD from 20 Hz-250 Hz through the whole system, which is about as high a frequency as you would ever want to hear anything coming from a sub (really lower, but the thing you are checking for above 100 Hz is to make sure that there is little or no overlap or colouration past about 100 Hz; otherwise you will be constantly aware of its operation, and that is not acceptable).So. The idea here is to see if you can adjust the sub (by moving it around here and there bit by bit) so that you can hear these tones clearly and distinctly, in an even and smoother manner. Ideally, you should be able to hear each change in frequency as a distinct entity. If they all sound alike or are mushy or boomy, you need to keep futzing with the location. At some point I pretty much guarantee you that you will find a spot that sounds better than the others. That is where you want to be.
Then there is the issue of relative phase with the main speakers. This is the step that gives many folks pause, as they do not think that they will be able to hear the difference. But that is rubbish. If a sub is out-of-phase with the main speakers, you can easily hear it as a suck out at some frequencies and a booming, vague, and sloppy response at others. Here is the key: play just those tones between 40-150 Hz. If things are wrong, you will not get a smooth transition through the frequencies at the listening position and you will notice that you have a big boom at one or two frequencies, generally in the 60-80 Hz region. If things are right, you will get a relatively smoother and more even response that allows you to easily hear the differences between the low frequencies, and not just a dull thud coming from the back of the room. The next step, if you have access to a Real Time Analyzer, like the great portable units made by Goldline or others, is to play full range pink noise through the system at a healthy level. As you are in the listening chair, you want to see if the RTA shows you what should be at least a reasonably smooth response from near-subsonics up through a couple hundred Hz. Play with phase here, as well. Generally manufacturers will provide you with a 2-position switch that allows you go back and forth between “phase” and “180 degrees out-of-phase. Flip this back and forth and one position will yield both better quality and more powerful, punchy bass. There are also a number of constantly-adjustable phase switches on the market, and they can be a little confusing. Generally he best thing to do with them is to find the best position at either end of the dial, and then GENTLY rotate it back a bit to where the bass quality is best at the listening position.
Now you are at the point that you should start to play music. Assuming you have taken care to do the basic installation as well as you could, you should at this point be pleasantly surprised to hear a deep, weighty, foundation to your favorite discs. I find that using a really really good classical selection that has bass drum, bass fiddles, and/or an organ is generally the best for seeing about overall coherence and integration of the sub with the main speakers. One of my favorites is the EMI LP set from Sir Charles Groves and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra (SLS 998). The combination of organ, drum, and full orchestra makes for quite a ride, and gives you all manner of bumps, footfalls, huge, swelling organ crescendos and bass drum whacks to listen to. This should be a thrilling experience. Play with the phase again. Move the sub around just a bit to see if you can knock out any bumps in response. Another great LP for this portion of the test is the (either the original if you can find one in good shape at a decent price or the Classic Records reissue) Royal Ballet Gala (LDS 6065 Soria Series) on RCA. There are stage bumps and subway rumblings galore, not to mention a lot of full-range music. And then there is the Gladiator soundtrack on CD, which is a great test disc itself. Again, play around with slight positioning changes and phase. If you have done your job well, you should be able to tell that you have expended your soundstage, that the “lid” on the top of the soundstage that you may have felt more than actually heard before you installed the sub is gone or lifted ‘way up, and that you now have a bigger cushion of “air” around all of the instruments of the orchestra. I use primarily orchestral music, by the by, for this part of the test, because I have found that if you get it right with such material, then the odds are heavily with you that things will sound sorted and right on all other types of music. Of course, if you are not a classics lover than this is easily enough done with music of your favored type.
In the end, after you have managed to get a reasonable sound from your new subwoofer, remember the cardinal rule: do not platy the damn thing too loudly! This alone has spoiled many an otherwise fine sub setup. There is a natural human tendency to pump up the bass, and this is fine if you are doing it for playing rap, heavy bebop, reggae, or the like. But if you are playing more conventional fare, you will want to make sure that your sub gives you augmentation on the bottom, but that it does not overwhelm the rest of the music.
There. You are set. Wasn’t that bad, eh? Bollocks. You are probably cursing me and thinking that you will never get it right. Relax. We have all had that feeling. Some of us for many years. But let me assure you that with a little practice you will be a budding expert. Soon enough you will be going ‘round to your mates’ houses and adjusting their subwoofers, too. This will win you many party favors and * pints. You see, most everyone loves a good sub installation, but at the same time they really dislike a poor one. Get it wrong and you will be made fun of. But get it right and you can be the new superhero for your group of music-listening buddies.

Scot Markwell ( HIFI + magazine)